Curse

Still Number One · Jan 23, 2010, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

A meta that doesn't get tired and simplistic
Easy group formation
Some way to avoid having totally stupid teams (3 monks, etc.)
Something the developers don't have to babysit

All metas get tired and simplistic over a certain period of time and making set skillbars that change over a period of time doesn't solve this because you get some periods where there is nothing very interesting to play. So that realistically is impossible to achieve at this point in Guild Wars.

In order to make group formation easy, people would have to start playing again. That isn't going to happen, therefore finding groups will always be impossible.

Totally stupid teams are only unavoidable if there are enough people who aren't stupid. Considering Guild Wars population consists of 99% retards and 1% people with some clue, that isn't gonna happen.

In order for the developers to not have to babysit something, they would have to make it correctly in the first place. Considering after 4 (almost 5 now I guess) years they still can't seem to get shit right, I'd say that is wishful thinking.

I think it is time people either became content with what they currently have or go find something else to spend your time on (actually it was time to do this 2 years ago, but it still hasn't changed).

pinkeyflower · Jan 23, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

The problem with TA and HB was that the meta was completely broken. TA was just getting shove spiked, or RTL'ed; it made gladiator points totally worthless and suffered the HA type of problem (rank discrimination). Also, because of this it was really quite difficult to progress to HA. I'd quite like a costume brawl type arena, however, it would force Anet to create a new event for Halloween.

Paradise Lost · Jan 23, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I miss TA so much and loved playing balanced, more than any of the silly spikes. I agree with the prvious post, it reduced the worth of glads for us that didn't use spike builds. But im getting over it by farming RA with sync. HB was fun for me but thats an OK loss. But TA, wow i miss it!

urania · Jan 23, 2010, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Except for Melandru dervish against BA, SF, Cripslash and a bunch of other conditions scattered all over the place. On top of that it had enchant removal, decent IAS, crazy strong IMS, DW, and 10r infuse.

More on topic, a Costume Brawl style arena with bars that changed once in a while would be pretty amazing.

im afraid we're not talking about the same costume brawl then.
The one i remember was with Melandru's Shot rangers, Signet of Judgement monks etc. No dervs, really.

the last costume brawl wasnt even close to it.

@ Paradise lost, don't be gay.

Revelations · Jan 24, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

im afraid we're not talking about the same costume brawl then.
The one i remember was with Melandru's Shot rangers, Signet of Judgement monks etc. No dervs, really.

the last costume brawl wasnt even close to it.

Yeah, that was the second one. It was definitely the best of the three. The first one wasn't completely awful, but dervs were pretty broke, given the rest of the bars.

This link shows the 2007 and 2008 bars.

J1000 · Jan 24, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

All metas get tired and simplistic over a certain period of time and making set skillbars that change over a period of time doesn't solve this because you get some periods where there is nothing very interesting to play. So that realistically is impossible to achieve at this point in Guild Wars.

In order to make group formation easy, people would have to start playing again. That isn't going to happen, therefore finding groups will always be impossible.

Totally stupid teams are only unavoidable if there are enough people who aren't stupid. Considering Guild Wars population consists of 99% retards and 1% people with some clue, that isn't gonna happen.

In order for the developers to not have to babysit something, they would have to make it correctly in the first place. Considering after 4 (almost 5 now I guess) years they still can't seem to get shit right, I'd say that is wishful thinking.

I think it is time people either became content with what they currently have or go find something else to spend your time on (actually it was time to do this 2 years ago, but it still hasn't changed).

This post is extremely defeatist.

Ganks · Jan 24, 2010, 07:49 AM // 07:49

You know, they could easily add something without taking something else away. I fail to see how 4v4 organized team pvp, which was the only sort of it's kind in the entire game, is in any way equivalent to these random puzzle battles with made up skills.

I'm not going to rant about it. It's just absurd, that's all. Anet does what they want, they take and give at their leisure probably just so they can tell the manager that they are doing something worth being paid for.

These are the same people that waited 1 or 2 years until between 1/4 and 1/2 of the entire playerbase quit to rebalance Iway. They put as much thought into removing TA as they did when they removed the HoH, which was arguably the best part of the entire game. But we can assume that happened because it invited PvE nubs to scrub around in PvP to get control of the farming zones in carebear land, but that doesn't explain the other invitations they left in plain sight for people to abuse who had no talent or skills in PvP what so ever.

And as far as that latter argument goes, my logic is that "noobs" learn and become "vets" where as idiots remain stupid forever.

My point is that I don't think they put much thought into these decisions. It's probably just 1 developer running the entire show without getting paid because I don't think they put much thought into these expansion packs either, and I don't think they are getting enough revenue.

Things will get worse before they get any better, if at all. I would love TA to come back or be replaced, but that is likely never going to happen. ArenaNet never really cared what we thought in the first place, I don't think they are going to change that policy anytime soon.

The opportune time for fixing guild wars has come and passed. Still Number One is right, you may think it is defeatist but reality isn't all cake and cheerios, and at the end of the day the responsibility falls on Anet and not any one of us. They should've stopped the train when they got rid of the HoH, they should've acted sooner on Iway and made a stronger attempt at balancing the game, as they started off doing in the very beginning. Somewhere along the line that changed, which was right about when the frog stopped showing up ...

The only thing keeping this game alive right now is the hardcore gamers that have no where else to go. Call it defeatist, call it whatever you want. It's the truth.

Corporeal Ghost · Jan 26, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ganks

(omitted for brevity)

You sound like you've got some unresolved issues with IWAY. The build was really not that overpowered after the attack speed cap was implemented. Moreover, IWAY was not the reason people quit. Pretty much anyone playing today will tell you they would rather play against the original IWAY than against the current garbage you see in both GvG and HA. IWAY was a proactive build; matches went somewhere. And it was never the best build; it simply offered reasonably good returns for poor execution in a metagame full of Gale, Blackout, and prots. It's possible to do the same thing today: put together 7-8 straight offensive characters and you can blow through Underworld matches all day long. The only major difference is that IWAY served as training wheels to play Warrior, a class that was heavily desired by "real" builds whereas any kind of trash you run now (mostly combinations of eles and blood necros) doesn't really translate to any other build.

But in terms of killing the game, IWAY really was a drop in the bucket; it's simply the most well-known "failure" of ANet's, so people like to blame it for everything short of third-world poverty. The three major blows to the game were Nightfall's release (and the resulting months of fallout), the lack of competitive events following GWFC, and the random 40-elite buffs.

To the thread in general, you really cannot compare the populations of TA six months ago to Codex today. Wait times for GvG are astronomical compared to what they were even six months ago. The game is losing people every day. Codex's emptiness is a symptom, not the problem. Plus, as has been stated, the only real difference in the number of matches played came from the RA graduates. Any new arena that is introduced at this point will have a month or two (if that) of relatively heavy population as people give it a shot. Then the mass influx of PvE players--oddly the only segment of the population that is still present in relatively large numbers--will realize that they cannot compete in a PvP format that does not have a high proportion of luck involved (as Random Arena does) and go back to whatever it is they do, leaving the place devoid of life.

As someone mentioned, giving out codex points for wins instead of streaks would probably liven the place up a little, but the problems here are twofold. Firstly, you still need to require either a qualifying round (as in HA) or a minimum streak of two for the first point to avoid the resignfest that hero battles turned into. Secondly, match quality is going to be atrocious if you're really trying to get the title-farmers to fill the void.

Which leads to my miniscule on-topic contribution. ANet obviously has extremely limited resources for PvP at this point. Instead of pestering them for new formats, I think it's more productive if we try to keep what we have limping along instead of dying entirely. Very few people can agree on what the ideal format would be. Too many formats DOES fragment the available playerbase for any one of them, regardless of whether it justifies the removal of anything. But pretty much everyone who comprehends even a little bit of what drives any of the major metagames agrees on what needs to be fixed.

J1000 · Jan 26, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Which leads to my miniscule on-topic contribution. ANet obviously has extremely limited resources for PvP at this point. Instead of pestering them for new formats, I think it's more productive if we try to keep what we have limping along instead of dying entirely. Very few people can agree on what the ideal format would be. Too many formats DOES fragment the available playerbase for any one of them, regardless of whether it justifies the removal of anything. But pretty much everyone who comprehends even a little bit of what drives any of the major metagames agrees on what needs to be fixed.

To be honest, my query about "replacing" TA was not necessarily about adding yet another arena, but rather on somehow filling the void left by TA. I think TA (like RA) was a fundamental game type to GW, unlike Codex, CB, and many others, even though people say it was broken (I've been out of the loop for years, so I wouldn't know). I'm with you on the "too many formats" comment though. Adding arenas dilutes the player base. (Incidentally, this may be a fundamental problem with GW's business model... when you rely on more pack releases you create more fragmentation; but I'm getting off topic.) But more importantly, arenas that are improperly structured will drive players away completely. That may not seem important since they've already paid for the software, but sales of GW2 are hurt when people flee from GW1. They need to look like a winner going into this next game.

In response to the comments about there being no hope for developer action, I have two things to say: First, the mere existence of Codex means there is at least some effort going on to enrich the PvP experience. Second, GW2 is currently in development, and I think anything said in here will apply to that as well.

Even if nothing changes, this game is already too fun for me. I had to force myself to stop playing it before, and I'm quickly headed in that direction again.

Corporeal Ghost · Jan 28, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

TA was not necessarily about adding yet another arena, but rather on somehow filling the void left by TA. I think TA (like RA) was a fundamental game type to GW

First, Codex would have done this if it wasn't implemented terribly. There are people that begged for Codex for months and refuse to play it now because the implementation is so bad.

Any replacement for TA is going to bring the same level of bitching. Even bringing TA back directly is going to have that impact at this point. The ~50 serious codex players are just as numerous as the ~50 serious TA players were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

the mere existence of Codex means there is at least some effort going on to enrich the PvP experience.

We are not saying there is zero PvP updating going on. We're saying that these resources are extremely precious and they need to be spent keeping the current game types alive rather than adding new ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1000

Second, GW2 is currently in development, and I think anything said in here will apply to that as well.

Many of us will not buy the sequel based on how ANet has treated the PvP playerbase in the first game.

superraptors · Jan 29, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

nothing should replace TA, if anet wasnt lazy and split pvp skills suited for ta ra / ha / gvg into different sections would have been better option imo

J1000 · Jan 29, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

We are not saying there is zero PvP updating going on. We're saying that these resources are extremely precious and they need to be spent keeping the current game types alive rather than adding new ones.

If you look at my suggestion it's actually an overhaul of RA. I think that falls into the category of "keeping the current game types alive". Whether it's TA or an overhauled RA makes no difference to me; my thoughts are that there is a fundamental game type missing: Standard 4v4 with standard GW skills and well-rounded teams. The current state of affairs is like an arcade with two gimped Street Fighter cabinets: One that only lets you pick characters at random, and another that only lets you pick from a few special moves. Both can be fun, but neither is very pure. Kind of maddening, really.

MasterSasori · Jan 30, 2010, 06:18 PM // 18:18

The only replacement for TA is to bring back TA or GW2.

Corporeal Ghost · Jan 31, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Let me rephrase: Fix what's broken before adding new arenas that will start even more broken. There are so many skills that are on absurd power levels that need toning down, not to mention the entire armor system, and all of the skills that are just fundamentally badly designed.

To be fair, the last update addressed a number of problem issues. But it took four or five months to fix a handful of skills that have been repeatedly winning monthlies and farming the ladder. And Mirror of Ice is apparently still stupid enough to run in single elimination. How long is it going to take to code a new matchmaking system if it takes five months to change a few numbers?

And lastly, there is no reason 4v4 annihilation with the full skill pool need be a "standard" part of Guild Wars. It was very evident by the games' setup from late beta on (I can't comment before that) that literally every part of the game graduated the players into a "next tier" of play, that went roughly: PvE-->4v4 random teams-->4v4 arranged teams-->8v8 arranged teams-->GvG. The game was designed from the ground up to be centered around GvG. There is nothing that makes 4v4 a "fundamental" part of the game. It was designed to be a stepping stone. It also functioned as something for teams with low numbers of people to do while the rest of their team logged on.

Yeah, it kind of sucks that TA is gone, but TA cannot do anything that codex doesn't do better unless ANet gets their shit together and balances some skills. Otherwise, you're much better off with an arena that spits out a playable metagame several times a week instead of...never...regardless of what your definition of "playable" is.

MasterSasori · Jan 31, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

The game was designed from the ground up to be centered around GvG. There is nothing that makes 4v4 a "fundamental" part of the game. It was designed to be a stepping stone. It also functioned as something for teams with low numbers of people to do while the rest of their team logged on.

Too bad that despite 4v4 not being "fundamental" part of the game, the vast majority of active players never get past lower PvP. Though the game was supposed to be centered around GvG, if Anet really wants to cater to the population, it will have to do so around the lower PvP and PvE.

Thanks to PvE skills and all that crap, PvE has gotten alot of attention, but the 4v4 arenas and lower PvP haven't. All PvP skill changes have been catered to GvG and hence, causes alot of problems in the smaller arenas where certain skills are OP.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 06, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Something went wrong in the translation there. Let me try again. Why is 4v4 annihilation such a necessary part of the game? Can you, without structuring your answer around this secondary question, give an answer that says TA cannot be replaced by Codex?

urania · Feb 07, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

TA can be replaced by CA (as in, it is possible to replace it or it is possible to implement it, just like it would be possible to replace HA with an 8v8 CA version), but for many people the replacement will be and is considered rather insufficient in comparison to the arena it replaced. Admittedly, in the last year or two it was broken through and through and often an unpleasant place to play in, but already those three rules they set in CA (including no heal on priest) would've at least removed shove and ele spikes, which were definately one of the most annoying and unenjoyable builds to play against. Ofcourse, more was needed to make it as good as it was during ZB peak times, but yeah...

The two of my guildies I TAed with are one of the first players i know who have decided to finally quit GW altogether if TA was to be removed.

Corporeal Ghost · Feb 07, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

for many people the replacement will be and is considered rather insufficient in comparison

This is the crux. It comes down to preference. I'm positing that this preference is shaped by habit. That is, there is demand for TA because TA has always been there, regardless of how unplayable it became toward the end. Frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. I just want people to see that there isn't some divine mandate that says TA needs to be in the game, or that TA is somehow better on a "fundamental" level than Codex.

They're literally the exact same format except TA had the luxury of fake matches from RA in dead hours and Codex does not allow exploitation of the same overpowered build every day--the overpowered build changes every six hours.

J1000 · Feb 08, 2010, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

They're literally the exact same format except TA had the luxury of fake matches from RA in dead hours and Codex does not allow exploitation of the same overpowered build every day--the overpowered build changes every six hours.

It's only similar in team structure. But Guild Wars is all about the skills, and if you take out most of the skills it's simply not at all the same. Not even close. You can have discussions about RA builds or TA builds, but who's going to talk about Codex builds when they're useless after 6 hours? There's no time to ponder tactics; it's all about improvising from scratch time after time. Yes it appeals to some people, but saying it's the same thing as TA is missing the point.

Sublimistri · Feb 08, 2010, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

Why no random codex anet?

A random codex could infact livin up ca by making the random codex teams goto the codex arenas at the end of ten wins.